It must come from the top

Well, I got a quick reply from the Pres. And although I hoped for something else, what I got was no shocker. I guess when you get terrible service somewhere and nothing is done about it, you have to think that it comes from somewhere.

Here is the last replay, unedited and in its entirety:

________

Mr. Hartley,

Over a month has past since we last communicated.

If you wish to contact the Attorney General, like trading the Baja at another dealership, the decision is yours.

___________

I didn't know there was a time limit for validation. Somehow I don't think his response would have been any different had I replied right away. And then giving me some attitude because I traded in my Baja somewhere else.... like they were helping me out at all or offering me a better deal?

Its been bugging me....

Its been a month or so now.... and I was hoping that this would all be over and I could get on with my life. But its been wearing on my nerved and weighing on my brain. I've made a lot of bad decisions in my life that cost me money, but this time I made a decent decision and lost a lot of money. That makes me angry. And it makes me angrier that these guys got away with this. What irritates me even MORE is that he started his email saying how good they are and ended with soliciting my business again. Thats just obscene.

So I had to write him back:

Mr. Krause,

Thank you for your reply. I know its been a month or so since this last correspondence; I was hoping I could move on and forget this whole ugly situation. However, I remain upset about the whole chain of events and a bit remiss about your message. I didn’t contact you prior to trading in my Subaru because I truly thought that this situation I was in would have warranted Lane to contact you himself about the possible resolution. I guess he didn’t feel this was an important enough situation or that I deserved special consideration. I feel that I’ve been completely scammed by Suburban Subaru. The two issues I had that you were contractually obligated to fix were never fixed by you, instead, I was told that there was nothing wrong with my car despite the documented 3rd party diagnostic to the contrary. Your service department told me there was nothing wrong with my car. So consider this: I felt so hopeless and unsafe in the vehicle that I felt I had to trade it in at a giant financial loss. Counseling your staff doesn’t give me my money or time back. I put my trust and money in you when I purchased my car, and for all that was worth I might as well have parked my trade-in vehicle in your lot with a bag of $4,000- because that was the end of day result from buying a car from you. I lost my whole summer since I didn’t want to drive the car any more miles than I had to because of the safety issues with it and that it made me so angry to be in it because it wasn’t fixed yet.
Although I appreciate your reply, I do feel that it was inappropriate to solicit my business again considering how much money, time, and headache this transaction has cost me and that none of the issues I’ve had with you had been resolved.
I’ve traded in the vehicle because I didn’t feel safe transporting my family in it and couldn’t wait for your repairs or resolutions any longer. However, I feel, despite not owning the car anymore, I have been wronged enough in this transaction to continue to pursue my case with the CT attorney general. That is, unless you can provide me a reason why I shouldn’t.

Sucky Suburban Subaru Saga: Aftermath pt2

And now..... a word from the owner......

Mr. Hartley,

I apologize for the horrible experience you have had at Suburban Subaru. It is certainly not our modus operandi to perform as we have in your case. I have been in the automobile business for over 38 years now, and would not have been able to survive if we treated customers as we have in your case.

However, in spite of our deployable performance, I thank you for taking the time to inform me of this situation. Rest assured, the appropriate members of our staff will be counseled to insure an event like this never happens again.

It is apparent you have moved on with your vehicle, and I trust you are now comfortable with your new dealership. Good luck, but if we can every be of assistance to you, we will be here at 24 Hartford Turnpike, and solicit the opportunity to serve you again.

-------------------------

Somehow, I feel its completely inappropriate at this point for him to plug how long he's been in business and how he must be doing something right. I think its even more improper to end with a statement suggesting that I ever do business with them again.

Sucky Suburban Subaru; The Aftermath

Well, the nice letter I wrote to the Owner of Krause Cars has made its way down the chain. I got a response from the GM (whom I didn't sent the letter to), notice he didn't remove the original email form his boss at the bottom...

-------------------------------

Adam,

Congratulations on the birth of your daughter…..I hope the experience of being parents is as enjoyable to you as it has been for myself and my wife.

Peter has forwarded to me your comments…..

I am sorry that I have failed in rectifying our transportation issues in a timelier fashion. I understand how you feel and don’t blame you for either your comments or your defection from Suburban.

As much as we try, we don’t always succeed in making everyone a happy customer despite our best efforts… I will take your comments to heart so this doesn’t happen again.

I wish you and your family the best of luck.


[GM Name]



Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 2:39 PM
To: GM
Subject: FW: Worst Car Buying Experience Ever


[Name],

What happened with Mr. Hartley.

Pete
Almost five months ago, I bought my Subaru Baja fromSuburban Subaru
and have had the worst possible buying and owning experience ever. I
have been failed by your staff in every possible way, ranging from the
Sales Manager who accused me of being a thief, to the Service Staff
that put unbalanced tires on my car to prove that my tires were not
the problem.

It started off as a simple purchase: I agreed to buy
the car provided that the tailgate latch would be fixed and
the vibration in the drivetrain would be eliminated.

Thetransaction proved to be anything but simple. After the title for my trade-in
was lost, an error was found on my bank check I used to pay for the
vehicle. My bank made a mistake in drafting the check, but your
finance department accepted the amount. When I was contacted weeks
later about this, your Sales Manager accused me of trying to "get away without paying
for the car." I'm an honest and reasonable person, and I don't appreciate being called a thief or con-man. This
was annoying and insulting, but the real problems started from day one when I drove
it home.

Suburban Subaru agreed to fix two problems with this car prior to delivery, but when I took delivery, I quicklyfound out that you did not do the repairs as promised. The tailgate latch that stuck in the openposition was still inoperable after two attempts by the service
department to fix it. This is not an ambiguous repair as it will
either stick, or it will not stick. It can't have been fixed when it left the shop. I repaired it myself rather than take it in again.
The vibration persisted past three visits before finding
warped brake rotors. After taking it to a third party tire
center, I had a report that there was a defect in the tires. Following this, your
service department rotated and balanced them again, and I was offered new
tires of my choosing to remedy the problem. Suburban Subaru never
delivered on this promise. To further troubleshoot the problem, tires from another
Baja were mounted on mine to show that it was not my tires that were
the problem. However, the tires used for the test were also not
balanced, rendering the test invalid. The test was never redone with
good tires. Each time after being in for service, the car was returned to me as 'fixed'; not as needing more work; as actually being fixed.I was was then told that this is just the way Subarus
drive. That being the case, I would have never bought the car in the
first place, but this was impossible to tell during a test drive when the
rotors are already warped.

After hearing of my plight, I was contacted by your General Manager
with an offer to trade me out of my Baja at a value close to what I
paid for the car. After some searching for an acceptable car to trade
me into, I found out that the 'close to what I paid' value was in fact
the wholesale value. In doing this trade, I stood to lose over
$4,000.00. As a person of principal and integrity, this
solution was unacceptable to me. I should not lose that much money while you make money by selling my car twice.

I have given Suburban Subaru every chance to do the right and ethical thing. I have
been very patient and reasonable, but I have reached my limit now that
my daughter has been born. My wife and I don't feel comfortable or
safe in this car and, with the level of service I've gotten so far, we
don't feel confident in the service history at Suburban. Having been
through this nightmare and wasted my summer, I've decided to trade
this Baja in elsewhere. I'm taking a giant financial hit but I will
sleep better knowing that your dealership is not making money off it's
unethical practices and my headaches. This trade-in process through you
has been almost 2 months in the making, however, I found another
dealership that has given me the same trade-in deal as you and was
successful in finding me a new vehicle in less than a week. This has
reaffirmed my stance of your trade-in deal was more about making money
off me than making me happy, since the other dealership gave me the
same deal as Suburban, but didn't owe me anything.

If your dealership was successful in resolving these issues, I was all set to
retract all the bad reviews I submitted to numerous websites. Instead I will be adding to them.
I have also beenwriting a running blog of my experiences that, until now, I kept
private. I was also prepared to scrap that blog if Suburban Subaru camethrough for me.

You didn't, so here is what your potential customers will be reading:

http://suckysuburbansubarusaga.blogspot.com/

I wanted to send you my story so that you would know what is happening at one of your dealerships and in hopes that these problems can be rectified so that nobody else has to endure the headache and frustration that I have.

So Long Suburban Subaru, and Thanks for all the Nothing

Dear Mr. Krause;

Almost five months ago, I bought my Subaru Baja fromSuburban Subaru
and have had the worst possible buying and owning experience ever. I
have been failed by your staff in every possible way, ranging from the
Sales Manager who accused me of being a thief, to the Service Staff
that put unbalanced tires on my car to prove that my tires were not
the problem.

It started off as a simple purchase: I agreed to buy
the car provided that the tailgate latch would be fixed and
the vibration in the drivetrain would be eliminated.

Thetransaction proved to be anything but simple. After the title for my trade-in
was lost, an error was found on my bank check I used to pay for the
vehicle. My bank made a mistake in drafting the check, but your
finance department accepted the amount. When I was contacted weeks
later about this, your Sales Manager accused me of trying to "get away without paying
for the car." I'm an honest and reasonable person, and I don't appreciate being called a thief or con-man. This
was annoying and insulting, but the real problems started from day one when I drove
it home.

Suburban Subaru agreed to fix two problems with this car prior to delivery, but when I took delivery, I quicklyfound out that you did not do the repairs as promised. The tailgate latch that stuck in the openposition was still inoperable after two attempts by the service
department to fix it. This is not an ambiguous repair as it will
either stick, or it will not stick. It can't have been fixed when it left the shop. I repaired it myself rather than take it in again.
The vibration persisted past three visits before finding
warped brake rotors. After taking it to a third party tire
center, I had a report that there was a defect in the tires. Following this, your
service department rotated and balanced them again, and I was offered new
tires of my choosing to remedy the problem. Suburban Subaru never
delivered on this promise. To further troubleshoot the problem, tires from another
Baja were mounted on mine to show that it was not my tires that were
the problem. However, the tires used for the test were also not
balanced, rendering the test invalid. The test was never redone with
good tires. Each time after being in for service, the car was returned to me as 'fixed'; not as needing more work; as actually being fixed.I was was then told that this is just the way Subarus
drive. That being the case, I would have never bought the car in the
first place, but this was impossible to tell during a test drive when the
rotors are already warped.

After hearing of my plight, I was contacted by your General Manager
with an offer to trade me out of my Baja at a value close to what I
paid for the car. After some searching for an acceptable car to trade
me into, I found out that the 'close to what I paid' value was in fact
the wholesale value. In doing this trade, I stood to lose over
$4,000.00. As a person of principal and integrity, this
solution was unacceptable to me. I should not lose that much money while you make money by selling my car twice.

I have given Suburban Subaru every chance to do the right and ethical thing. I have
been very patient and reasonable, but I have reached my limit now that
my daughter has been born. My wife and I don't feel comfortable or
safe in this car and, with the level of service I've gotten so far, we
don't feel confident in the service history at Suburban. Having been
through this nightmare and wasted my summer, I've decided to trade
this Baja in elsewhere. I'm taking a giant financial hit but I will
sleep better knowing that your dealership is not making money off it's
unethical practices and my headaches. This trade-in process through you
has been almost 2 months in the making, however, I found another
dealership that has given me the same trade-in deal as you and was
successful in finding me a new vehicle in less than a week. This has
reaffirmed my stance of your trade-in deal was more about making money
off me than making me happy, since the other dealership gave me the
same deal as Suburban, but didn't owe me anything.

If your dealership was successful in resolving these issues, I was all set to
retract all the bad reviews I submitted to numerous websites. Instead I will be adding to them.
I have also beenwriting a running blog of my experiences that, until now, I kept
private. I was also prepared to scrap that blog if Suburban Subaru camethrough for me.

You didn't, so here is what your potential customers will be reading:

http://suckysuburbansubarusaga.blogspot.com/

I wanted to send you my story so that you would know what is happening at one of your dealerships and in hopes that these problems can be rectified so that nobody else has to endure the headache and frustration that I have.

Bye Bye Baja!

OK, I've finally done it.
The Baja is no more. Well, not mine anymore. I'm sure it will find a good home somewhere else and not sold through Suburban Subaru. Can't hate the care; Its not the car's fault it was sold through the worst dealership ever. I just couldn't stand being in it anymore without feeling like I should drive it off a bridge or into a large pole.

I came across Bolles Chrysler Dodge Jeep in Stafford Springs. I saw an ad for a used Jeep there and thought maybe I should at least go and drive one before saying "yeah, I wont one of those".

Well, the one I saw an ad for was at a different location, but since the 2008-2010 models are pretty much the same I went for a test drive anyway. Went on a short jaunt through the backroads on a nice fall day. It fit. It would be a good replacement. Let's see what we can do....

They gave me a couple options: I could give them a rough idea of what I wanted and if they got one in, they'd call me and let me know. The second and more attractive option was the 2nd- I give them a small deposit, tell them exactly what I'm looking for, and they go to auctions to look for what I want. (sounds a little familiar, no?) Now because they have a deposit, they know I'm serious and that its pretty much a guaranteed sale if they find it. This way its a lower risk and quick sale for them, so I can get a better price because of it. oddly enough, this is pretty much exactly (minus the deposit) the same deal that Suburban Subaru was offering me: give me wholesale for my car and go to auctions to find me what I want.
The big difference here......
Suburban has been trying for 2 months.
Bolles had one in less than a week.

Done and done.

I'm now happily driving my 2008 Jeep Liberty. And no vibration or shaking. I'm sleeping better and blood pressure is lower.

I guess I did end up driving a Jeep out of the hole Suburban Subaru has put me in.

You haven't made an irate customer happy, what are you going to do now?

I'M GOING TO DISNEY WORLD!

Not me, The GM of Suburban Subaru. He's going on vacation... again....

Where am I going? I don't know, but it's 2 more weeks in the Subaru of Ill Repute.

Stick a fork in me.

I'm done.

Time for plan B- which is what I should have done a while ago: Frak Him!

I've decided my pride and integrity is worth more.

If this was a quick and fair deal he was offering, I would swallow some hostility and anger. I would have removed my reviews of his dealership. I'm an honest and reasonable person. if he made good, I'd make good. Simple as that.

Easy, yes?

Apparently not.

I will sleep easier knowing that he screwed me over only once instead of twice.

He's not making a second round of profit off my misery and suffering.

I'll cut my losses and do a regular trade-in somewhere else.

Somewhere that maybe I'll get a fair shake and deserve my money.

Since I've had very little luck finding a reasonably priced FJ, I'v embraced my second choice of a 2008 Jeep Liberty. I was part of Club Jeep before, and I like Jeeps. So what the hell.

Apparently we live in the doldrums of Jeep dealers here, so I trekked out to Stafford Springs and found Bolles Jeep/Chrysler/Dodge. Met some fun people and made a deal. They didn't have what I wanted, but as a cash buyer they would go to auctions for me as a personal buyer. I give them a small deposit to show I'm serious, they give me a good deal because it will be a quick and dirty sale (less cost and risk to them since its pretty much a guaranteed sale), a fair trade value on The Subaru and I'm rid of this story forever. (After I make this Blog public that is- everyone should know about this story).

That was Monday. On Saturday, I got an e-mail saying that bought one that they think I'll like and fits my criterion. Nice

Less than a week and they got something at auction for me.... its been three months for my Suburban Subaru guy and still nothing.....

Granted, I haven't seen it yet.... but they seem to be pretty straight up..... stay tuned for the possible conclusion.........

Waiting...and waiting....and searching...and waiting...

OK, its officially be a long-ass time here.

And I'm officially pissed off.

Not only is Suburban Subaru willing to "make me happy" by giving me a strictly wholesale trade value for the car they royally raked me over the coals on, but because of their "generosity" they are not able to get me a wholesale car to trade me into.

For Example:

I got my car for about $16,000

I also put about $1000 of accessories into it.

So, if they took back the car for $16,000, not only would I actually be happy that they did the right thing, but they would be making out with more value-added to the car.

They get me a wholesale vehicle (or even a RETAIL vehicle) and forego profit on it just to get rid of me, then its all over: I don't lose money because of their absolute and total failure to me as a 'valued customer', and they don't lose money while not gaining thousands of dollars of the bad publicity I would be gladly sharing with everyone. Everyone would be happy.

But, its not going that way. Because of their greed and only concern for their bottom line, they are not able to find something to trade me into. Therefore, I do not go away.

And the story continues......

Over the past couple weeks, this shake or vibration that has been the topic of my rantings has become the bane of my existence and in fact, has been getting worse.

After the whole unbelievable 3-Stooges routine where they put unbalanced tires on my car to prove that there was nothing wrong with my car, I have been teeth-grittingly awaiting my removal from this car. Lets face it, every time I've gotten into this car I'v wanted to drive it straight off a cliff... but I digress....

If you remember, I brought this car into Tires International, the local (and quite honest and reliable) tire specialty shop to have my sanity checked; since Suburban Subaru was now telling me that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the car and that I mustjust not like the way Subarus drive.....

OK

Whatever

Even if that were the case, then I should get my money back for sure since I wouldn't have bought the car in the first place if it had initially driven like that and they said there was nothing wrong with it.

So now, weeks later, no trade-out and the vibration still grating on my nerves.

Before I would almost buy that this was normal. Maybe the tire place was wrong... even though they are a tire place.... tires is what they do. Maybe I'm just a crank. But NOW, no way. Not even a little bit. there's something wrong here.

So i bring it back to the tire place, tell them my story, and they do another check, of my head.... and my car. This time I got a written sheet saying what was the matter.

Sure enough, they found the same thing, there are flat spots on my rear (previously my front) tires. Only a couple things could cause this: Being dragged as if by a tow truck, or a defective/drifting belt. They think the latter.

So... defective tires.

Not surprising.

I think this bit of info needs to be sent to the attorney general's office.

(who has yet to contact me about anything yet- 4 moths later)

Intermission- H is for Hole

H is for Hole

See the Hole

The Hole is deep

You can bury things in the Hole

See the Subaru Baja

You can bury the Subaru Baja in the Hole

See Suburban Subaru

You can bury Suburban Subaru in the Hole

See my crappy tires

See the broken tailgate latch

See the overheating engine

Oh-oh - The General Manager sees me burying things in the hole

Maybe he will try to trade my new car for whole sale prices

And I will swallow my pride and take the deal

What ELSE can I bury in the Hole?

(maybe I get a Jeep and drive out of the Hole)






(with apologies to Shel Silvertstein)

CARMAX... they're OK....

Ok, we all know car dealers suck monkey nuts. Not necessarily the salespeople... but lets face it, nobody likes going into the used car lot and getting attacked by the Golf Pants Mafia.
My previous rants are pure proof of that.
Anyway
If we remember, I finally got wind of what the GM of the Subaru place was willing to do to make me 'happy'. Basically he was going to give me a lot less than I paid- basically trade-in value for my car toward something he was going to get at auction. He says he's not trying to make a profit off me and that car prices are all a big show about what they are. If you went to a dealer and have a trade-in to use, they would skew the price on the car you were buying and/or your trade. In the end, you don't really know what you paid for the car, you just know you can afford it.
This is what happened to me when I bought it. This is a fact since nobody is going to say a 1997 Toyota Camry is worth $3,500.
So... enter CarMax.
If your not familiar with CarMax, they are a used car dealership that only does non-haggle set pricing. What's on the sticker is what you would pay... period. Also, they give a certain amount for trade-ins based on market value and availability- not just some NADA value or KBB value. They look at auction sales and historical selling prices for similar cars. Now here's the test: They will give you the same amount for your trade-in weather you buy a car from them or not.
Ah-HA!
So, in order to see what the real market wholesale value for my car is- I just need to get it appraised by them. That way the value of my trade is not influenced by the car I'm wanting to buy.
Perfect- lets go!
The whole experience was actually pretty pleasant. No games, no salesperson running after me, no going for secret conferences with the sales manager and coming back with different numbers. Overall, if I had the money to spend, I'd buy a car from them.
Unfortunately, I don't have the money- I gave it to this shady Subaru place instead.
SO the appraisal comes in.
$12,500
Hmm... thats actually HIGHER than the price the GM was saying he'd give me to make me happy and not make a profit off me.
So it apparent now that the Subaru GM is treating me simply like I just randomly changed my mind about the car I bought from them- and now he's doing me a favor by getting me a wholesale car to trade me into. That would be awful nice if that were the case.
But its not.

Lets recap the highlights of how this went down:

The salesperson, when looking at the car initially, told me that a bed extender and bed cover came with it.
When getting ready to take the car home, I ask about the bed cover and bed extender. He said they didn't come with it.
He did come up with a bed extender, but I had to buy the mounting hardware separately for it. (thats 2 trips back)

They lost the title for the trade-in vehicle (another trip back)

They misread my bank check that the bank made wrong- so I had to go to the bank and the dealership again (another trip) And although it was the same money, I felt like I was paying for it twice!

When the Sales manager called to inform me about the check issue he basically called me a thief by saying that i was trying to get away with not paying for the car. That was only after he completely freaked out because I called him 'Dude'

The problems that were on the sales contract were not fixed when I picked it up

The problems that were on the sales contract were not fixed when I picked it up the second time

The problems that were on the sales contract were not fixed when I picked it up the third time

The problems that were on the sales contract were not fixed when I picked it up the fourth time

They offered me new tires to solve the wheel shake- they reneged on that offer

While doing one of the test drives, the radiator temp blew through the roof. if I had not been doing everything to solve the other problems, that fix would have come out of my pocket not two months into owning this car.

To prove to me that the shake was not the fault of the tires, they put another set of tires on. The tires they put on were not balanced properly. So the whole test wasn't balanced.
(3 trips wasted and a day in a rental car)

So no.... I'm not just someone who just randomly changed his mind about the car he bought.
I'm someone who almost had to change his address because he was spending so much time at Suburban Subaru.

The only way to make this right by me is to make it like I never bought the car at all. After all, if the car drove the way it does now, and they said there was nothing wrong with it, I would have never bought the car in the first place.

So no.. I don't think him making a profit on the trade-in of my car bought from him under false pretenses 3 months ago is a fair deal.

Ow...my head....

Thats right....ow my frikkin' head (or Fracking for BSG fans).....
So, apparently the General Manager guy I've been dealing with has been on vacation or out of town for whatever reason. We've been catching up this morning.... and status for me has gone back to 'Pissed off' rather than 'Patiently awaiting results'.

So last week.....

I have been finding reasonable trade-in options that were in my price range and sending them to him. Now, I was going on the assumption that I was going to be getting the full value of my car that I paid for it. Which makes sense in the scheme of things: I bought a car under the pretenses that the shake in the drivetrain would be fixed. They agreed. They now say its fixed. I still don't like it, they say its 'normal' for a Subaru- so if it had this level of shake when I bought it, I wouldn't have bought it.
So...
I haven't had any luck with the links and leads I've been sending. Finally I sent one that was perfect and was real. It sat around for a week and was then finally sold. So it was a viable trade but they didn't take it.
So I got to asking for some clarification that went something like this: If My car is worth $16k and I would accept this car that is $19k, then my car + $3k would come out equal. Yes?
Apparently.... he has other thoughts on the issue....
First he says that he thinks my FJ quest is doable AFTER the used car market calms down after the Clunkers Era. Fair enough. He then proceeds to send me links to Kelly BlueBook, showing me the values of the Baja and FJs. The idea he's conveying is that FJs are valued at the $25k mark and the Baja is around the $16 mark.
Fair enough.... except theres a fallacy here....
Prices have more flux than a buyer's guide can reflect. Such as that They are willing to give me my value for my car- period. So thats a fixed number. Then there's the FJ price which, regardless of what the book says, has been found in the price range that I want.
So my math makes sense.
His response to my flawless logic:

"According to my calculations, it will cost you about 8k to get into one of the FJ’s you are finding for me…..
In order to make your numbers work, I need to be able to buy the FJ in the 16’s…and based on the current market conditions I can’t find an FJ for that number…. "

Hmmmm.... this is odd. Those numbers don't add up. Maybe he's not including the extra cash I'm willing put out......
I says......
"An Fj in the 16’s for a clean even swap... But with an additional 4k from me would bring up to 20. No?"

Logical, no?

He responds with the kicker:

"No, I’m using your figure of 4kish….I pay 16k…plus whatever work it may need in the shop…your car is worth about 13k….actual cash value"




Ok, hold the phone....... He's planning on giving me $13k for my car I got from him 3 months ago for $16k? And didn't we have an agreement that he was going to give me full value toward my trade? Kind of a Make-Good kind of thing? And in addition... he would be making a boat-load of profit off my misery! So i buy the car... he makes a profit off that....then he trades me into something else, and then makes even more profit off it!
That...is wrong. Just plain wrong. making double profit off my headache.
I'v been trying to ignore the shake in the anticipation of being traded out of it without losing my shirt.
So what to do now? The only advantage with going through them is that I could get auction price for the next car. Which is nice, but I'd almost rather pay more and not give them the satisfaction for bending me over the barrel.... again.

Stay tuned for the continuing drama.....

I hate used car dealers.... a lot.

OK, related, but not related, directly, to my Subaru woes.. . . .

As you intrepid followers of the Sucky Subaru Saga, here is an aside...

You may remember that Mr. General Manager was trying to find me an FJ Cruiser to trade me out of this Baja thats been ruining my spare time. He's not been real successful so far. I find it a bit suspicious and slightly fishy.
I've been doing my own searching of CraigsList, Auto Trader, Cars.com, and other local dealers for reasonably priced FJs. Mr. GM always comes back saying he can't contact them, they aren't available, or they don't exist. Now I can buy that for some, but for all?
Dubious.....I call shenannigans!
So, I find one that is in the price range I'm interested in at a fairly local Toyota place. Its a bit higher in the miles but has a good options and looks to be in good shape- and the price is good. Plus the miles it has is like a year of driving over what I have now. So no big woop. I give them a call to see if its still there.
Its not. Also not surprising. But, he says he has 2 others at other locations he could bring in if I wanted to take a look. I say, sure if they have the right price point. HE says one of them is $19,900. Ok, thats in the range, I can go look. Just to go through the motions, I make the appointment to go.
Next Day:
I get a call from him saying that the one they were going t bring up is sold already, but they have the other one and its the same price. Hmm, yesterday it wasn't mentioned it was the same price. But ok. I'll take a look.
Next Day:
I get there. and there it is in the lot. Great- step one: it exists.
Once they find the keys I go take a ride.
Now this is one stripped down FJ. Aside the allow wheels and passenger arm rest (yes, that's an option) its pretty bare bones.Manual tranny, no upgraded stereo, no steering wheel controls, no power inverter, no roof rack, no towing package, no instrument pod...nothing.But its only got 37,000 miles. So I can live with it.
Taking a closer look around, the tires have seen better days- would likely need replacing in the next year or so. The E-Brake was also very loose. Maybe needs new Pads.
So- it drives fine, we get back.
Now- he goes into the back office to talk with the sales manager..... this is going to be fun....
He comes back with some numbers scrawled on the back of some paper. First thing I notice is that the price he put down for the Fj is $21,995. Hmmm... I'm not a math wiz, but $21,995 is a lot more than $19,900. Then the insulting part.... He has the trade in value for my car at $9,600. Umm.... yeah...... thats more than $8000 less than what I paid for it not 3 months ago.
Wow.
I say, well, I guess we don't have anything to talk about. I pick up my papers and head for the door. He all but grabs my arm and pull me back in. He says don't shoot the messenger. Yeah, he's my sales rep, he's responsible for anything he tells me. I tell him I know what the MSRP for my car is and what I paid for it recently. Its almost $18k. I tell him I was told the car was $19,900 and now somehow its magically $3,000 more. I didn't come here to get jerked around with some sort of bait and switch scam.
Being a somewhat overly-patient person, I sit and he makes a stop at the sales manager about the price change then goes into the business managers office about the trade in price.
And would you believe the guy has the nerve to come back out with the NADA book in his hand and points out to me what the average trade-in value for my car is, saying how the price I told him was way off and doesn't sound right.
Wow.
This guy is now trying to prove me wrong by pointing at numbers in a book instead of just trying to work with me. Plus I know the online NADA guide says its worth at least $13,000 for trade-in.
So I say I've done my research and I know what I paid, so I know what the market value is. I get him to look at a different guide.

This guy goes and gets the auction listings and opens it. He finds a comparable listing and was about to point to it to show me the "hey look its also saying the same thing" but his face fell and revealed a number closer to $16,000 for a non-turbo version. Now his attitude has changed. Oh "We're not a Subaru Dealer, We don't know Subarus".
Yeah, like I'm a Subaru dealer, but somehow I know how to look things up.He says, Oh, I'll call my friend at a Subaru dealership and see what we can do.
OK.... whatever......JAckass.

Car dealers....they all suck.... all of them.

Really?....I mean... REALLY?!?!?!

The Curse

OK, now I know I'm just cursed. Or maybe just my car is cursed. Possibly Subaru Bajas just don't like me. Maybe I've offended the tire gods in some way and should make an offeing to Vulcan(ized rubber)....... either way, this is just crazy......

So, when we last left off I was test driving my car with 4 different tires mounted on 4 different rims from a different Baja. Ok, this should prove the point. Yes?
Well- I road tested the car on Saturday and it was Vibration City. I bring it back and be on my way, saying that it seemed to be worse.
How COULD it be worse?
The on-going theory we are working on right now is that my tires suck and that trying different tires would prove that, or not prove that.
Well, enter today.....

They assure me there is nothing wrong with my car. And just to prove this point I take a ride with the GM in a different Baja. Surely this would drive the point home weather the vibration I'm feeling is just a part of being a Baja and not due to any defect. (and stop calling me Shirly..)
We get on the road and what happens? The steering wheel is moving around like a constipated wiener dog (thank you Wierd Al). The GM is in the and see and feels it.
This is not my car- but we have a big shimmy going on here too. And its not just me being a crank.
OK, get back to the dealership. Turns out....ok.....you'll love this..... although you've probably figured it out.....
This Baja I drove that isn't mine, to prove that the problem isn't my car, that had a worse shake than my car, is in fact... the car they took the tires off of and mounted on my car to prove that it wasn't my tires.
Wow.
Just Wow.
So OBVIOUSLY when these tires were on my car the shake would be worse!
So....well.....I'm just out of words right now..... stay tuned.......

Columbo Style

Oh yeah.... one more thing, sorry to bother ya....why did you kill your wife?... Just curious, don't mean to be a pest...oh sorry....I digress....

What happened is this:

Saturday morning I got to test drive my car. They've decided to try and figure out the shake rather than just giving me 4 new tires. Which is good because I was very skeptical when they agreed to change the tires just because I said I went somewhere else and they said it was the tires.
So they took the tires and wheels from another Baja they had (I think it was actually already sold to someone too) and put them on my car.

I go for a drive.

Not a mile down I84 and I feel this same vibration. Certainly much more notational than on Friday when I was with the GM. I get off the next exit and was going to go back. I thought, nah, lets go some more down the other way. So 2 more exits into Coventry. Still had it. So back I went.

Ok, so... different tires and wheels... same vibration?
Is there something else wrong?
Am I a nutter? (no comments!)
Was the tire place wrong?
IS this just what Subarus feel like?

At this point, I don't know. I check with them this morning and they assure me that there's nothing else mechanically wrong with it. Of course they put it on the lot with warped rotors and it took them 3 tries to to find. They were so warped that they needed replacing. So I have to take their assurance with several grains of salt.

They still have my car as they are waiting for a part to fix the raising temperature issue from Friday. I expect a call from the GM today at some point.

So let's say I'm a nutter, everyone else does, so it wouldn't be the first time. And lets say that this is normal for a Subaru. There was still a big vibration when I bought it and confirmed that it was due to warped rotors. If I got to drive it without warped rotors and it had this vibration, I would most likely not have bought the car or still said it vibrated and wanted it fixed as a condition of purchase.

So where does this leave us? I don't know. I'm still going to dump the car as I still don't really trust their service- if for no other reason than the tailgate latch issue.

But we shall see..... maybe I'll get a vintage Peugeot....

Big Brother's Watching

Ok, I pissed someone off.

Granted, I think I piss a lot of people off, but this is different.

As the loyal readers have come to realize, I've had a couple problems with the Subaru I got and the Dealership I got it from. So, as any person who's been ripped off would do, I started writing reviews of this dealership at any site that would allow me to. Not nasty, but a factual account of what's happened thus far.
Well, apparently someone has been doing their Web Analytics and I got a call from the General Manager. Not my sales rep or Sales manager, or even the service manager. Big cheese for the place.
Mind you, at this point I've been trying to call my sales guy for over 2 weeks to get him the information for the tires I wanted put on my car. They agreed to do this and I just needed to tell them what tires I wanted.
I called, he answered and promptly told me he was busy with a customer, but I could email him the information. Ok, I immediately email him the info. A week passes with no followup from him. I email again again and ask for a confirmation. Nothing. Two days later the second email bounces back. Hmmm, the first one didn't- did he get that one? I tried another email from a different email account. No bounce back, but no reply either.
So I call. No answer, so I leave a message and leave my cell number. The next day I have a message on my WORK phone from him. Seems suspicious that I wasn't at work and he didn't then try my cell. I call back- and no answer again. And again I leave a message with my cell number. No answer. Ok, now I'm irritated and suspect he's screening my calls. SO I call from a different phone, and low and behold he answers... even more highly suspicious.
This time he's driving and can't write anything down.
Ok, whatever.... now he's asking for trouble.
Later, I finally get a call, but its from the General Manager, and boy is he pissed off. He's found and read my reviews. The fact that I've been in there so many times for this, in his words, "Frosts his ass". He doesn't need this kind of bad publicity in this economy.
So we talk.
He says he can't give me a refund, but he can trade me into something else. This would be an even exchange, unlike what I was told before where they could buy back my car at trade-in value. Trade-in values are designed to made a profit, and making a profit off of me in this way was just not acceptable. So, since I was planning on trading this Subaru in at another dealership after they fix it anyway, this seems like a good course of action.
We make a time to meet.
Meeting day:
I meet him in the morning on Friday and the first thing we do is get in my car. He wants to see the vibration I'm all ape-shit over. No surprise here- it doesn't shake. Well that just figures. I drive it a couple miles, then he gets in and drive it a couple miles. Maybe it needs a few miles to warm up. Either way, problem or not, I'm unhappy and he aims to correct that. Finally! Someone who gives a rats ass.
EIther way, the shake didn't happen, but what DID happen is the temp gauge needle jumped into the red zone. WTF? This is a new thing on me, however I'm not surprised.. . . .
I opened the hood once after getting home because the engine sounded odd. This is my first turbo, so it ma eb normal, but I wanted to look. Holey shit if I didn't almost burn my hand on the hood support rod. It was waayyyy hot! Again, I've never had a turbo before, it could be normal, the turbo intercooler could be blowing right on it or something. The temp gauge at that time wasn't high, so I left it.
Well, if we remember, one of the reason I was so batshit crazy about the service issues is because this car has always been serviced here and was inspected here before the sale. They don't seem to be able to tell if a trunk latch works, so why would I trust their service on the car. And this just proves it. If I wasn't already making stink here, the fix for this problem would be on MY DIME. I have a Subaru with 45,000 miles on it for 3 months and already I'm dumping money into it? What's a year down the road? (see video posted earlier today)
So that sealed the deal on me dumping this car before it's a money pit.
We get back:
He wants to keep the car for the weekend- sure, no problem. He gives the keys to the service center and says, fix it. We go into his office and asks me what I want to get into and he starts doing some searches at wholesale auctions. They give me a 2009 Impreza for a rental. He should be calling me later today with an update. This time, I believe I'll get a call.
But we shall see........ stay tuned for the conclusion.

Second Response from the BBB

So apparently, according to the Better Business Bureau its OK to lie to customers......


In some instances, BBB receives a company's explanation with documentation supporting its position, rather than an offer of a specific adjustment. If the response addresses the disputed issues, BBB forwards the company's response to the customer for an opportunity to accept or rebut the company's position. At that time, if the customer does not provide additional information with documentation supporting his/her position and is unable to refute the company's evidence, then BBB is obliged to consider the matter resolved. Likewise, if a company makes an effort to resolve a dispute satisfactorily and its customer remains dissatisfied despite the company's efforts to satisfy the customer, then we are also obliged to consider the matter resolved.
After thoroughly reading all correspondence regarding your complaint against the above named company, BBB has determined that the company addressed your dispute. At this time, we are closing your complaint accordingly.

........ thats the whole email. Notice they didn't give any information for providing additional information for a dispute. No email address, no phone number.

Response from the BBB

I appreciate and apologize for the issues Mr. Hartley has endured. As he stated in his complaint, we have performed under the limits of the state mandated used car warranty, and while our original diagnosis may have been wrong, we did replace the rotors and are willing to replace the tires. If Mr. Hartley had brought the rear hatch to our attention, I'm sure we could have solved that as well.

We have been selling and servicing Subaru's in greater Hartford for over 20 years. We have a good product and a good dealership. We don't receive too many complaints and are in good standing with all consumer agencies. While we are human and make mistakes, we will always work towards solving any complaint and/or work towards making our customers happy.

I would be more then happy to trade Mr. Hartley out of the car; unfortunately, we can't just take the car back and provide him with a refund because he has no confidence in the vehicle.

My response TO the BBB

Suburban Subaru's 30 year history in business does not have any bearing on this case or my issues. Also “under the limits of the state mandated used car warranty” simply means they are doing what they must under law. The law states what you MUST do, not what you CAN do. The law doesn’t say you can’t give a refund, it only says you don’t have to. So it really depends on how much they value the satisfaction and piece-of-mind their customers have. In light of the repeated problems with this vehicle, Suburban Subaru should value their customer's satisfaction enough to go beyond bare legal minimums and take care of the problems in a satisfactory manner.
While I do appreciate that diagnosis of problems such as vibrations in the vehicle can be tricky and require several attempts to remedy, this is not really the issue. The problem here is that each time I was given the car back, it was reported to me as being fixed. It was not said at any time that it was NOT fixed and needed more work except for the third visit where they machined the rotors so thin that they needed to be replaced. They were either warped or defective (their 106 point mechanical and safety inspection didn’t catch the warped rotors). I am currently waiting for a response form them regarding the replacement of the tires. I find it curious that they are willing to replace all four tires on my word alone and no additional inspection by them. Surely if they realized the tires needed replacing after their own inspections they would have done it, right? This makes me suspicious that they knew the tires needed replacing all along but were trying to get away without doing it.
Also, since this info was from an inspection of the tires without replacing them yet, there is no guarantee that this vibration will be gone after the tires are replaced. The defect in the tires could be a result of some other problem with the vehicle rather than the sole cause of the vibration.
I would also request that the tires of my choosing be installed at a different service center as it is apparent to me that the techs at Suburban Subaru can not notice a vibration as they have given me my car back with a vibration in it four times.
Concerning the tailgate latch; this should have been a very simple cut and dry repair. To say that “If Mr. Hartley had brought the rear hatch to our attention, I'm sure we could have solved that as well” is unacceptable. They had two chances to fix it- both times they said it was fixed. I simply didn’t need to waste my time and miss work to have them try again. It was, however, not fixed twice, yet it was returned to me as being fixed. This should not have been a tricky or ambiguous repair- it either works or not. Each time it was said to be fixed, it obviously was not. As soon as I got home and tested it and sure enough it was the same as it was before with the exception that it had some WD40 on it but still didn’t close. How do you explain that sort of service? What they did didn’t fix it, yet it was given back to me as fixed. Straight up incompetence, laziness, or worse- fraudulent.
I am also concerned that these problems have distracted or masked other problems that may or may not be related to the initial issues. The vibration problem may eventually be fixed, but it may have been hiding an unrelated problem that will not be covered by the dealership since the vehicle is now out of the CT implied warranty. The car seems to get lower than recorded MPG- which may or may not be due to the current problem. The hood support, after driving, is almost too hot to handle- this too may also be related to the vibration, but may not be. I won’t know until the vibration is fixed. Since the vibration won’t be fixed until after the warranty period is past, I may be stuck paying for these pre-existing problems myself.
To say that I have no confidence in the car is only part of the problem. I have no confidence in the service or the dealership. Aside of the service issues, they have also managed to loose the title of my trade-in and accuse me of trying to cheat or scam them out of money.
Concerning the trade/buyback; My salesman mentioned that the only ‘refund’ type solution would be to buy back the car at the trade-in value. This solution is unethical and unacceptable. Trade-in values are based on the dealer making a profit on its resale. Making a profit on the misery of their customers is wrong. I could sell it for more than the trade-in value and still lose thousands of dollars on this transaction. I would consider a trade into another vehicle only at full suggested retail value and if the vehicle was fully inspected by another service center.

Here's Why. . . . . . .

Remember when you found out the government was giving billions of dollars of your tax money to privately owned companies because they screwed up and those that screwed up the business in the first place continued to make more money in a day than you'll ever see in your life? Now remember how that made you feel... so pissed off you could barely function but with the added bonus of having nothing you could do about it? Well, thats where I am now.. . . . . . .

I decided to go out and get a used car. I had a slush fund of cash and thought this might be a good use for it. After some deliberation, I decided on a Subaru Baja (yeah, I know, Baja ha ha ha). Its a love-hate relationship, but it was a good compromise between function and efficiency- plus its a Subaru, which are well known for being very reliable cars. So I find one to look at, and happened to be right down the street- great!

So I go take a look see. The one they had was a little high in miles for my tastes, but they were just getting a trade-in of one that looked very promising; 5-speed, turbo, very low miles. Fantastic.
So they price it- and this should have tipped me off right away - it had TWO prices on the sticker right away; the WAS price and the NOW price. As I said, it just got there- there was no WAS price. thats just a crock.

I looked it over with the sales-guy. Good condition. It had rails for a bed cover. I asked if the bed cover came with it, he said it did but they didn't keep them on because they have a tendency to 'walk away' at night. Also mention the bed extender also came with the car.
Cool.

So I took it for a ride.

Drove well, but had a very noticeable shake in the steering wheel; and other than that, seemed pretty good. Later during inspection I also found the tailgate latch also stuck in the OPEN position. No biggie, right?

Some time later when I decide to buy it.. . . . . .

However, with my used car bargaining powers, I got them down to what I wanted to pay (with trade in). Ended up being $2k lower than their NOW price and even more off of suggested retail. In the contract was noted the shake and the latch and that they would be fixed before I drove off with it.
I also mention the bed cover and bed extender. They said it didn't have a cover but they would get me a bed extender once one came in on another Baja. OK, whatever- maybe my memory wasn't so good. I still got a good deal on the car.

So with papers signed, check handed over and problems fixed (they said the tires just needed some balancing.. makes sense), I drive the 2 miles home.
No problem.
Driving to work was a good deal looonger, about 30 miles each way... where I notice the steering wheel shaking. Grrrr. they were supposed to fix that!
I checked the tailgate and sure enough it was also not fixed. Double Grrr!
So I bring it back and say hey... not fixed!
I bring it back in and before the end of the day they balanced the tires... again... and fixed the tailgate latch... again..... I am called to pick it up and it was fixed.
Drive to work again and shake... shake... shake....grrrrr.
And sure enough, the latch was still not fixed.
SO I thinks- Hey, latches are pretty easy, WTF?
I take it apart myself and find my hands stinking of WD40- so both times they were fixing this they just sprayed it with WD40 and called it a day? Thats some quality service there!
Turns out the hinge pit was rusty and no amount of lube was going to make it go easy. So I took it apart and sanded it down. Viola! Works like new.
Now, in the meantime I've gotten a call from the manager saying I owe them money.
I owe them money? I had my bank write a check from my account for the amount on my invoice. I told him I'd have to check it out.
I check with my bank and yes, indeed, they had written it for the wrong amount. Great. But the Subaru place didn't catch it either and wrote PAID on my invoice.
Now, I can only go in on the weekends without leaving work early, so thought I'd bring the money in on Saturday. Well, before Saturday hit I get a voicemail saying that they want their money and that they were holding my registration. WHat? They mess this up and now they're threatening me? I call back.
I admit I'm a little cheesed at this attitude I'm getting. Now somewhere in the conversation I must have said 'Dude' (I work at ESPN where its the 3rd word out of some people's mouths) and this guy FLIPS OUT "Did you just call me DUDE?!?!?!?" and degrades from there to where he accuses me of trying to get away with not paying for the car! that pisses me off pretty good right there. Then it turns out that they lost the title for the trade in.
Yikes, this place doesn't have their stuff together!
So Saturday comes and I get the bank check, and we sign papers so they can get a copy of the title. I also make an appointment to have that shake checked out again.
And since they couldn't seem to find the shake themselves, I was going to take a ride with them.
While there, they had a bed extender for me. I went to put it in the car and, oops, no mounting brackets! I go to the parts area and order a set of mounting brackets. $50! For a couple pieces of stamped metal...just ducky.

Next appointment. .. . . . . .

We go for a ride and the tech with me can pretty much immediately see the shake in the wheel and feel it in the brakes. Why couldn't they see that before?
So This time instead of balancing the tires... again .... they decide its the brake rotors and machine them. Still shakey.... Machine again... still shakey. They have a machine that machines rotors while on the car to take into account any problems with the suspension (sound like duct tape and bubble gum to me) but that apparently made it WORSE. So, they machine it down to the minimum thickness and give up. They tell me they're ordering NEW rotors and will replace them. OK... great. Sounds like a good solution and its not just balancing the tires again. But more importantly, I'm not a hypochondriac.
OK, done and done.... drive to work.....
and yep, you guessed it.... shake shake shake. A bit different, not in the brakes, just the steering wheel, and at somewhat lower speeds. Have I mentioned Grrr?
So back I go. We take a drive together, and lo and behold, the tech feels the shake too. Hmm, odd he didn't feel it when he was supposed to have test driven it after replacing the rotors.....
So guess what they do. . . . . balance and rotate the tires.... gimme a break!
SO its done again.... its "fixed". I drive to work. And not too surprisingly.... there's still a shake in the wheel......
OY!
Isn't the definition of insanity "doing the same thing and expecting different results"?
This is definitely insane.
Before going back, I bring it to the local tire place.
After about 10 minutes with the car they came to these conclusions:
1- The tires are VERY new. Like so new they thought I just bought them.
2- The balancing weights are too large for the size tires on the car
3- The tires have an unusual amount of 'bounce' to them. (maybe this means something to tire people.
4- You could balance these tires all day and they would never be fully balanced.

If there was a time to use 'FML', it would be right here. And here's why. . . . .

-These people lost the title and didn't read the check I gave them.
-These people can't tell if a car has a shake in the steering or not (or don't actually check)
-They do the same thing 3 times to fix the same problem.
-Give me back the car 4 times as being fixed
- According to CARFAX, this car has been serviced by these people its whole life
-They supposedly do a 100+ point inspection for every used car they sell

All these being facts, what amount of trust should I have that this car isn't going to just fall apart or have some major repairs very soon? None really. Not by the example of the fine service they've provided me so far.

I've contacted them about the most recent shaking and that I took it to a 3rd party inspector. Surprisingly they're willing to take my word for the findings and replace all 4 tires. Which makes me very suspicious.
But honestly, I'd rather just have my money back, give them back their car and be done with it and them. The likeliness of this happening is very small. CT does not have a used car lemon law- only for new cars. I've called Subaru America to ask for help and they said aside of filing a complaint, there's not much they can do for me. I filed with the BBB, but they don't actually have any power to do anything. I called CT Dept. of Consumer protection for advice; nobody would talk to me. They said I had to have something in writing. OK- so I wrote 4 pages of details and faxed it in. I called to confirm the fax and they said they couldn't and that I'd be getting a letter in the MAIL confirming my case number. Case number? I don't even know if I want to file a case! I just wanted advise. To make it worse, someone might get back to me in 2-3WEEKS. Yikes... there's a model of efficiency and helpfulness.

So I'm between a rock and a hard place. Nobody on any side is willing to help me out or even give advise. I guess I just suck up the fact that the dealership is going to get away with this with little more than a blurb in the BBB office and a note at Subaru HQ. And maybe next year I'll get a call from the Attorney General's office about a moot point.