Ok, we all know car dealers suck monkey nuts. Not necessarily the salespeople... but lets face it, nobody likes going into the used car lot and getting attacked by the Golf Pants Mafia.
My previous rants are pure proof of that.
Anyway
If we remember, I finally got wind of what the GM of the Subaru place was willing to do to make me 'happy'. Basically he was going to give me a lot less than I paid- basically trade-in value for my car toward something he was going to get at auction. He says he's not trying to make a profit off me and that car prices are all a big show about what they are. If you went to a dealer and have a trade-in to use, they would skew the price on the car you were buying and/or your trade. In the end, you don't really know what you paid for the car, you just know you can afford it.
This is what happened to me when I bought it. This is a fact since nobody is going to say a 1997 Toyota Camry is worth $3,500.
So... enter CarMax.
If your not familiar with CarMax, they are a used car dealership that only does non-haggle set pricing. What's on the sticker is what you would pay... period. Also, they give a certain amount for trade-ins based on market value and availability- not just some NADA value or KBB value. They look at auction sales and historical selling prices for similar cars. Now here's the test: They will give you the same amount for your trade-in weather you buy a car from them or not.
Ah-HA!
So, in order to see what the real market wholesale value for my car is- I just need to get it appraised by them. That way the value of my trade is not influenced by the car I'm wanting to buy.
Perfect- lets go!
The whole experience was actually pretty pleasant. No games, no salesperson running after me, no going for secret conferences with the sales manager and coming back with different numbers. Overall, if I had the money to spend, I'd buy a car from them.
Unfortunately, I don't have the money- I gave it to this shady Subaru place instead.
SO the appraisal comes in.
$12,500
Hmm... thats actually HIGHER than the price the GM was saying he'd give me to make me happy and not make a profit off me.
So it apparent now that the Subaru GM is treating me simply like I just randomly changed my mind about the car I bought from them- and now he's doing me a favor by getting me a wholesale car to trade me into. That would be awful nice if that were the case.
But its not.
Lets recap the highlights of how this went down:
The salesperson, when looking at the car initially, told me that a bed extender and bed cover came with it.
When getting ready to take the car home, I ask about the bed cover and bed extender. He said they didn't come with it.
He did come up with a bed extender, but I had to buy the mounting hardware separately for it. (thats 2 trips back)
They lost the title for the trade-in vehicle (another trip back)
They misread my bank check that the bank made wrong- so I had to go to the bank and the dealership again (another trip) And although it was the same money, I felt like I was paying for it twice!
When the Sales manager called to inform me about the check issue he basically called me a thief by saying that i was trying to get away with not paying for the car. That was only after he completely freaked out because I called him 'Dude'
The problems that were on the sales contract were not fixed when I picked it up
The problems that were on the sales contract were not fixed when I picked it up the second time
The problems that were on the sales contract were not fixed when I picked it up the third time
The problems that were on the sales contract were not fixed when I picked it up the fourth time
They offered me new tires to solve the wheel shake- they reneged on that offer
While doing one of the test drives, the radiator temp blew through the roof. if I had not been doing everything to solve the other problems, that fix would have come out of my pocket not two months into owning this car.
To prove to me that the shake was not the fault of the tires, they put another set of tires on. The tires they put on were not balanced properly. So the whole test wasn't balanced.
(3 trips wasted and a day in a rental car)
So no.... I'm not just someone who just randomly changed his mind about the car he bought.
I'm someone who almost had to change his address because he was spending so much time at Suburban Subaru.
The only way to make this right by me is to make it like I never bought the car at all. After all, if the car drove the way it does now, and they said there was nothing wrong with it, I would have never bought the car in the first place.
So no.. I don't think him making a profit on the trade-in of my car bought from him under false pretenses 3 months ago is a fair deal.
Friday, September 25, 2009
Monday, September 21, 2009
Ow...my head....
Thats right....ow my frikkin' head (or Fracking for BSG fans).....
So, apparently the General Manager guy I've been dealing with has been on vacation or out of town for whatever reason. We've been catching up this morning.... and status for me has gone back to 'Pissed off' rather than 'Patiently awaiting results'.
So last week.....
I have been finding reasonable trade-in options that were in my price range and sending them to him. Now, I was going on the assumption that I was going to be getting the full value of my car that I paid for it. Which makes sense in the scheme of things: I bought a car under the pretenses that the shake in the drivetrain would be fixed. They agreed. They now say its fixed. I still don't like it, they say its 'normal' for a Subaru- so if it had this level of shake when I bought it, I wouldn't have bought it.
So...
I haven't had any luck with the links and leads I've been sending. Finally I sent one that was perfect and was real. It sat around for a week and was then finally sold. So it was a viable trade but they didn't take it.
So I got to asking for some clarification that went something like this: If My car is worth $16k and I would accept this car that is $19k, then my car + $3k would come out equal. Yes?
Apparently.... he has other thoughts on the issue....
First he says that he thinks my FJ quest is doable AFTER the used car market calms down after the Clunkers Era. Fair enough. He then proceeds to send me links to Kelly BlueBook, showing me the values of the Baja and FJs. The idea he's conveying is that FJs are valued at the $25k mark and the Baja is around the $16 mark.
Fair enough.... except theres a fallacy here....
Prices have more flux than a buyer's guide can reflect. Such as that They are willing to give me my value for my car- period. So thats a fixed number. Then there's the FJ price which, regardless of what the book says, has been found in the price range that I want.
So my math makes sense.
His response to my flawless logic:
"According to my calculations, it will cost you about 8k to get into one of the FJ’s you are finding for me…..
In order to make your numbers work, I need to be able to buy the FJ in the 16’s…and based on the current market conditions I can’t find an FJ for that number…. "
Hmmmm.... this is odd. Those numbers don't add up. Maybe he's not including the extra cash I'm willing put out......
I says......
"An Fj in the 16’s for a clean even swap... But with an additional 4k from me would bring up to 20. No?"
Logical, no?
He responds with the kicker:
"No, I’m using your figure of 4kish….I pay 16k…plus whatever work it may need in the shop…your car is worth about 13k….actual cash value"
Ok, hold the phone....... He's planning on giving me $13k for my car I got from him 3 months ago for $16k? And didn't we have an agreement that he was going to give me full value toward my trade? Kind of a Make-Good kind of thing? And in addition... he would be making a boat-load of profit off my misery! So i buy the car... he makes a profit off that....then he trades me into something else, and then makes even more profit off it!
That...is wrong. Just plain wrong. making double profit off my headache.
I'v been trying to ignore the shake in the anticipation of being traded out of it without losing my shirt.
So what to do now? The only advantage with going through them is that I could get auction price for the next car. Which is nice, but I'd almost rather pay more and not give them the satisfaction for bending me over the barrel.... again.
Stay tuned for the continuing drama.....
Thursday, September 17, 2009
I hate used car dealers.... a lot.
OK, related, but not related, directly, to my Subaru woes.. . . .
As you intrepid followers of the Sucky Subaru Saga, here is an aside...
You may remember that Mr. General Manager was trying to find me an FJ Cruiser to trade me out of this Baja thats been ruining my spare time. He's not been real successful so far. I find it a bit suspicious and slightly fishy.
I've been doing my own searching of CraigsList, Auto Trader, Cars.com, and other local dealers for reasonably priced FJs. Mr. GM always comes back saying he can't contact them, they aren't available, or they don't exist. Now I can buy that for some, but for all?
Dubious.....I call shenannigans!
So, I find one that is in the price range I'm interested in at a fairly local Toyota place. Its a bit higher in the miles but has a good options and looks to be in good shape- and the price is good. Plus the miles it has is like a year of driving over what I have now. So no big woop. I give them a call to see if its still there.
Its not. Also not surprising. But, he says he has 2 others at other locations he could bring in if I wanted to take a look. I say, sure if they have the right price point. HE says one of them is $19,900. Ok, thats in the range, I can go look. Just to go through the motions, I make the appointment to go.
Next Day:
I get a call from him saying that the one they were going t bring up is sold already, but they have the other one and its the same price. Hmm, yesterday it wasn't mentioned it was the same price. But ok. I'll take a look.
Next Day:
I get there. and there it is in the lot. Great- step one: it exists.
Once they find the keys I go take a ride.
Now this is one stripped down FJ. Aside the allow wheels and passenger arm rest (yes, that's an option) its pretty bare bones.Manual tranny, no upgraded stereo, no steering wheel controls, no power inverter, no roof rack, no towing package, no instrument pod...nothing.But its only got 37,000 miles. So I can live with it.
Taking a closer look around, the tires have seen better days- would likely need replacing in the next year or so. The E-Brake was also very loose. Maybe needs new Pads.
So- it drives fine, we get back.
Now- he goes into the back office to talk with the sales manager..... this is going to be fun....
He comes back with some numbers scrawled on the back of some paper. First thing I notice is that the price he put down for the Fj is $21,995. Hmmm... I'm not a math wiz, but $21,995 is a lot more than $19,900. Then the insulting part.... He has the trade in value for my car at $9,600. Umm.... yeah...... thats more than $8000 less than what I paid for it not 3 months ago.
Wow.
I say, well, I guess we don't have anything to talk about. I pick up my papers and head for the door. He all but grabs my arm and pull me back in. He says don't shoot the messenger. Yeah, he's my sales rep, he's responsible for anything he tells me. I tell him I know what the MSRP for my car is and what I paid for it recently. Its almost $18k. I tell him I was told the car was $19,900 and now somehow its magically $3,000 more. I didn't come here to get jerked around with some sort of bait and switch scam.
Being a somewhat overly-patient person, I sit and he makes a stop at the sales manager about the price change then goes into the business managers office about the trade in price.
And would you believe the guy has the nerve to come back out with the NADA book in his hand and points out to me what the average trade-in value for my car is, saying how the price I told him was way off and doesn't sound right.
Wow.
This guy is now trying to prove me wrong by pointing at numbers in a book instead of just trying to work with me. Plus I know the online NADA guide says its worth at least $13,000 for trade-in.
So I say I've done my research and I know what I paid, so I know what the market value is. I get him to look at a different guide.
This guy goes and gets the auction listings and opens it. He finds a comparable listing and was about to point to it to show me the "hey look its also saying the same thing" but his face fell and revealed a number closer to $16,000 for a non-turbo version. Now his attitude has changed. Oh "We're not a Subaru Dealer, We don't know Subarus".
Yeah, like I'm a Subaru dealer, but somehow I know how to look things up.He says, Oh, I'll call my friend at a Subaru dealership and see what we can do.
OK.... whatever......JAckass.
Car dealers....they all suck.... all of them.
As you intrepid followers of the Sucky Subaru Saga, here is an aside...
You may remember that Mr. General Manager was trying to find me an FJ Cruiser to trade me out of this Baja thats been ruining my spare time. He's not been real successful so far. I find it a bit suspicious and slightly fishy.
I've been doing my own searching of CraigsList, Auto Trader, Cars.com, and other local dealers for reasonably priced FJs. Mr. GM always comes back saying he can't contact them, they aren't available, or they don't exist. Now I can buy that for some, but for all?
Dubious.....I call shenannigans!
So, I find one that is in the price range I'm interested in at a fairly local Toyota place. Its a bit higher in the miles but has a good options and looks to be in good shape- and the price is good. Plus the miles it has is like a year of driving over what I have now. So no big woop. I give them a call to see if its still there.
Its not. Also not surprising. But, he says he has 2 others at other locations he could bring in if I wanted to take a look. I say, sure if they have the right price point. HE says one of them is $19,900. Ok, thats in the range, I can go look. Just to go through the motions, I make the appointment to go.
Next Day:
I get a call from him saying that the one they were going t bring up is sold already, but they have the other one and its the same price. Hmm, yesterday it wasn't mentioned it was the same price. But ok. I'll take a look.
Next Day:
I get there. and there it is in the lot. Great- step one: it exists.
Once they find the keys I go take a ride.
Now this is one stripped down FJ. Aside the allow wheels and passenger arm rest (yes, that's an option) its pretty bare bones.Manual tranny, no upgraded stereo, no steering wheel controls, no power inverter, no roof rack, no towing package, no instrument pod...nothing.But its only got 37,000 miles. So I can live with it.
Taking a closer look around, the tires have seen better days- would likely need replacing in the next year or so. The E-Brake was also very loose. Maybe needs new Pads.
So- it drives fine, we get back.
Now- he goes into the back office to talk with the sales manager..... this is going to be fun....
He comes back with some numbers scrawled on the back of some paper. First thing I notice is that the price he put down for the Fj is $21,995. Hmmm... I'm not a math wiz, but $21,995 is a lot more than $19,900. Then the insulting part.... He has the trade in value for my car at $9,600. Umm.... yeah...... thats more than $8000 less than what I paid for it not 3 months ago.
Wow.
I say, well, I guess we don't have anything to talk about. I pick up my papers and head for the door. He all but grabs my arm and pull me back in. He says don't shoot the messenger. Yeah, he's my sales rep, he's responsible for anything he tells me. I tell him I know what the MSRP for my car is and what I paid for it recently. Its almost $18k. I tell him I was told the car was $19,900 and now somehow its magically $3,000 more. I didn't come here to get jerked around with some sort of bait and switch scam.
Being a somewhat overly-patient person, I sit and he makes a stop at the sales manager about the price change then goes into the business managers office about the trade in price.
And would you believe the guy has the nerve to come back out with the NADA book in his hand and points out to me what the average trade-in value for my car is, saying how the price I told him was way off and doesn't sound right.
Wow.
This guy is now trying to prove me wrong by pointing at numbers in a book instead of just trying to work with me. Plus I know the online NADA guide says its worth at least $13,000 for trade-in.
So I say I've done my research and I know what I paid, so I know what the market value is. I get him to look at a different guide.
This guy goes and gets the auction listings and opens it. He finds a comparable listing and was about to point to it to show me the "hey look its also saying the same thing" but his face fell and revealed a number closer to $16,000 for a non-turbo version. Now his attitude has changed. Oh "We're not a Subaru Dealer, We don't know Subarus".
Yeah, like I'm a Subaru dealer, but somehow I know how to look things up.He says, Oh, I'll call my friend at a Subaru dealership and see what we can do.
OK.... whatever......JAckass.
Car dealers....they all suck.... all of them.
Thursday, September 10, 2009
Tuesday, September 1, 2009
The Curse
OK, now I know I'm just cursed. Or maybe just my car is cursed. Possibly Subaru Bajas just don't like me. Maybe I've offended the tire gods in some way and should make an offeing to Vulcan(ized rubber)....... either way, this is just crazy......
So, when we last left off I was test driving my car with 4 different tires mounted on 4 different rims from a different Baja. Ok, this should prove the point. Yes?
Well- I road tested the car on Saturday and it was Vibration City. I bring it back and be on my way, saying that it seemed to be worse.
How COULD it be worse?
The on-going theory we are working on right now is that my tires suck and that trying different tires would prove that, or not prove that.
Well, enter today.....
They assure me there is nothing wrong with my car. And just to prove this point I take a ride with the GM in a different Baja. Surely this would drive the point home weather the vibration I'm feeling is just a part of being a Baja and not due to any defect. (and stop calling me Shirly..)
We get on the road and what happens? The steering wheel is moving around like a constipated wiener dog (thank you Wierd Al). The GM is in the and see and feels it.
This is not my car- but we have a big shimmy going on here too. And its not just me being a crank.
OK, get back to the dealership. Turns out....ok.....you'll love this..... although you've probably figured it out.....
This Baja I drove that isn't mine, to prove that the problem isn't my car, that had a worse shake than my car, is in fact... the car they took the tires off of and mounted on my car to prove that it wasn't my tires.
Wow.
Just Wow.
So OBVIOUSLY when these tires were on my car the shake would be worse!
So....well.....I'm just out of words right now..... stay tuned.......
So, when we last left off I was test driving my car with 4 different tires mounted on 4 different rims from a different Baja. Ok, this should prove the point. Yes?
Well- I road tested the car on Saturday and it was Vibration City. I bring it back and be on my way, saying that it seemed to be worse.
How COULD it be worse?
The on-going theory we are working on right now is that my tires suck and that trying different tires would prove that, or not prove that.
Well, enter today.....
They assure me there is nothing wrong with my car. And just to prove this point I take a ride with the GM in a different Baja. Surely this would drive the point home weather the vibration I'm feeling is just a part of being a Baja and not due to any defect. (and stop calling me Shirly..)
We get on the road and what happens? The steering wheel is moving around like a constipated wiener dog (thank you Wierd Al). The GM is in the and see and feels it.
This is not my car- but we have a big shimmy going on here too. And its not just me being a crank.
OK, get back to the dealership. Turns out....ok.....you'll love this..... although you've probably figured it out.....
This Baja I drove that isn't mine, to prove that the problem isn't my car, that had a worse shake than my car, is in fact... the car they took the tires off of and mounted on my car to prove that it wasn't my tires.
Wow.
Just Wow.
So OBVIOUSLY when these tires were on my car the shake would be worse!
So....well.....I'm just out of words right now..... stay tuned.......
Columbo Style
Oh yeah.... one more thing, sorry to bother ya....why did you kill your wife?... Just curious, don't mean to be a pest...oh sorry....I digress....
What happened is this:
Saturday morning I got to test drive my car. They've decided to try and figure out the shake rather than just giving me 4 new tires. Which is good because I was very skeptical when they agreed to change the tires just because I said I went somewhere else and they said it was the tires.
So they took the tires and wheels from another Baja they had (I think it was actually already sold to someone too) and put them on my car.
I go for a drive.
Not a mile down I84 and I feel this same vibration. Certainly much more notational than on Friday when I was with the GM. I get off the next exit and was going to go back. I thought, nah, lets go some more down the other way. So 2 more exits into Coventry. Still had it. So back I went.
Ok, so... different tires and wheels... same vibration?
Is there something else wrong?
Am I a nutter? (no comments!)
Was the tire place wrong?
IS this just what Subarus feel like?
At this point, I don't know. I check with them this morning and they assure me that there's nothing else mechanically wrong with it. Of course they put it on the lot with warped rotors and it took them 3 tries to to find. They were so warped that they needed replacing. So I have to take their assurance with several grains of salt.
They still have my car as they are waiting for a part to fix the raising temperature issue from Friday. I expect a call from the GM today at some point.
So let's say I'm a nutter, everyone else does, so it wouldn't be the first time. And lets say that this is normal for a Subaru. There was still a big vibration when I bought it and confirmed that it was due to warped rotors. If I got to drive it without warped rotors and it had this vibration, I would most likely not have bought the car or still said it vibrated and wanted it fixed as a condition of purchase.
So where does this leave us? I don't know. I'm still going to dump the car as I still don't really trust their service- if for no other reason than the tailgate latch issue.
But we shall see..... maybe I'll get a vintage Peugeot....
What happened is this:
Saturday morning I got to test drive my car. They've decided to try and figure out the shake rather than just giving me 4 new tires. Which is good because I was very skeptical when they agreed to change the tires just because I said I went somewhere else and they said it was the tires.
So they took the tires and wheels from another Baja they had (I think it was actually already sold to someone too) and put them on my car.
I go for a drive.
Not a mile down I84 and I feel this same vibration. Certainly much more notational than on Friday when I was with the GM. I get off the next exit and was going to go back. I thought, nah, lets go some more down the other way. So 2 more exits into Coventry. Still had it. So back I went.
Ok, so... different tires and wheels... same vibration?
Is there something else wrong?
Am I a nutter? (no comments!)
Was the tire place wrong?
IS this just what Subarus feel like?
At this point, I don't know. I check with them this morning and they assure me that there's nothing else mechanically wrong with it. Of course they put it on the lot with warped rotors and it took them 3 tries to to find. They were so warped that they needed replacing. So I have to take their assurance with several grains of salt.
They still have my car as they are waiting for a part to fix the raising temperature issue from Friday. I expect a call from the GM today at some point.
So let's say I'm a nutter, everyone else does, so it wouldn't be the first time. And lets say that this is normal for a Subaru. There was still a big vibration when I bought it and confirmed that it was due to warped rotors. If I got to drive it without warped rotors and it had this vibration, I would most likely not have bought the car or still said it vibrated and wanted it fixed as a condition of purchase.
So where does this leave us? I don't know. I'm still going to dump the car as I still don't really trust their service- if for no other reason than the tailgate latch issue.
But we shall see..... maybe I'll get a vintage Peugeot....
Friday, August 28, 2009
Big Brother's Watching
Ok, I pissed someone off.
Granted, I think I piss a lot of people off, but this is different.
As the loyal readers have come to realize, I've had a couple problems with the Subaru I got and the Dealership I got it from. So, as any person who's been ripped off would do, I started writing reviews of this dealership at any site that would allow me to. Not nasty, but a factual account of what's happened thus far.
Well, apparently someone has been doing their Web Analytics and I got a call from the General Manager. Not my sales rep or Sales manager, or even the service manager. Big cheese for the place.
Mind you, at this point I've been trying to call my sales guy for over 2 weeks to get him the information for the tires I wanted put on my car. They agreed to do this and I just needed to tell them what tires I wanted.
I called, he answered and promptly told me he was busy with a customer, but I could email him the information. Ok, I immediately email him the info. A week passes with no followup from him. I email again again and ask for a confirmation. Nothing. Two days later the second email bounces back. Hmmm, the first one didn't- did he get that one? I tried another email from a different email account. No bounce back, but no reply either.
So I call. No answer, so I leave a message and leave my cell number. The next day I have a message on my WORK phone from him. Seems suspicious that I wasn't at work and he didn't then try my cell. I call back- and no answer again. And again I leave a message with my cell number. No answer. Ok, now I'm irritated and suspect he's screening my calls. SO I call from a different phone, and low and behold he answers... even more highly suspicious.
This time he's driving and can't write anything down.
Ok, whatever.... now he's asking for trouble.
Later, I finally get a call, but its from the General Manager, and boy is he pissed off. He's found and read my reviews. The fact that I've been in there so many times for this, in his words, "Frosts his ass". He doesn't need this kind of bad publicity in this economy.
So we talk.
He says he can't give me a refund, but he can trade me into something else. This would be an even exchange, unlike what I was told before where they could buy back my car at trade-in value. Trade-in values are designed to made a profit, and making a profit off of me in this way was just not acceptable. So, since I was planning on trading this Subaru in at another dealership after they fix it anyway, this seems like a good course of action.
We make a time to meet.
Meeting day:
I meet him in the morning on Friday and the first thing we do is get in my car. He wants to see the vibration I'm all ape-shit over. No surprise here- it doesn't shake. Well that just figures. I drive it a couple miles, then he gets in and drive it a couple miles. Maybe it needs a few miles to warm up. Either way, problem or not, I'm unhappy and he aims to correct that. Finally! Someone who gives a rats ass.
EIther way, the shake didn't happen, but what DID happen is the temp gauge needle jumped into the red zone. WTF? This is a new thing on me, however I'm not surprised.. . . .
I opened the hood once after getting home because the engine sounded odd. This is my first turbo, so it ma eb normal, but I wanted to look. Holey shit if I didn't almost burn my hand on the hood support rod. It was waayyyy hot! Again, I've never had a turbo before, it could be normal, the turbo intercooler could be blowing right on it or something. The temp gauge at that time wasn't high, so I left it.
Well, if we remember, one of the reason I was so batshit crazy about the service issues is because this car has always been serviced here and was inspected here before the sale. They don't seem to be able to tell if a trunk latch works, so why would I trust their service on the car. And this just proves it. If I wasn't already making stink here, the fix for this problem would be on MY DIME. I have a Subaru with 45,000 miles on it for 3 months and already I'm dumping money into it? What's a year down the road? (see video posted earlier today)
So that sealed the deal on me dumping this car before it's a money pit.
We get back:
He wants to keep the car for the weekend- sure, no problem. He gives the keys to the service center and says, fix it. We go into his office and asks me what I want to get into and he starts doing some searches at wholesale auctions. They give me a 2009 Impreza for a rental. He should be calling me later today with an update. This time, I believe I'll get a call.
But we shall see........ stay tuned for the conclusion.
Granted, I think I piss a lot of people off, but this is different.
As the loyal readers have come to realize, I've had a couple problems with the Subaru I got and the Dealership I got it from. So, as any person who's been ripped off would do, I started writing reviews of this dealership at any site that would allow me to. Not nasty, but a factual account of what's happened thus far.
Well, apparently someone has been doing their Web Analytics and I got a call from the General Manager. Not my sales rep or Sales manager, or even the service manager. Big cheese for the place.
Mind you, at this point I've been trying to call my sales guy for over 2 weeks to get him the information for the tires I wanted put on my car. They agreed to do this and I just needed to tell them what tires I wanted.
I called, he answered and promptly told me he was busy with a customer, but I could email him the information. Ok, I immediately email him the info. A week passes with no followup from him. I email again again and ask for a confirmation. Nothing. Two days later the second email bounces back. Hmmm, the first one didn't- did he get that one? I tried another email from a different email account. No bounce back, but no reply either.
So I call. No answer, so I leave a message and leave my cell number. The next day I have a message on my WORK phone from him. Seems suspicious that I wasn't at work and he didn't then try my cell. I call back- and no answer again. And again I leave a message with my cell number. No answer. Ok, now I'm irritated and suspect he's screening my calls. SO I call from a different phone, and low and behold he answers... even more highly suspicious.
This time he's driving and can't write anything down.
Ok, whatever.... now he's asking for trouble.
Later, I finally get a call, but its from the General Manager, and boy is he pissed off. He's found and read my reviews. The fact that I've been in there so many times for this, in his words, "Frosts his ass". He doesn't need this kind of bad publicity in this economy.
So we talk.
He says he can't give me a refund, but he can trade me into something else. This would be an even exchange, unlike what I was told before where they could buy back my car at trade-in value. Trade-in values are designed to made a profit, and making a profit off of me in this way was just not acceptable. So, since I was planning on trading this Subaru in at another dealership after they fix it anyway, this seems like a good course of action.
We make a time to meet.
Meeting day:
I meet him in the morning on Friday and the first thing we do is get in my car. He wants to see the vibration I'm all ape-shit over. No surprise here- it doesn't shake. Well that just figures. I drive it a couple miles, then he gets in and drive it a couple miles. Maybe it needs a few miles to warm up. Either way, problem or not, I'm unhappy and he aims to correct that. Finally! Someone who gives a rats ass.
EIther way, the shake didn't happen, but what DID happen is the temp gauge needle jumped into the red zone. WTF? This is a new thing on me, however I'm not surprised.. . . .
I opened the hood once after getting home because the engine sounded odd. This is my first turbo, so it ma eb normal, but I wanted to look. Holey shit if I didn't almost burn my hand on the hood support rod. It was waayyyy hot! Again, I've never had a turbo before, it could be normal, the turbo intercooler could be blowing right on it or something. The temp gauge at that time wasn't high, so I left it.
Well, if we remember, one of the reason I was so batshit crazy about the service issues is because this car has always been serviced here and was inspected here before the sale. They don't seem to be able to tell if a trunk latch works, so why would I trust their service on the car. And this just proves it. If I wasn't already making stink here, the fix for this problem would be on MY DIME. I have a Subaru with 45,000 miles on it for 3 months and already I'm dumping money into it? What's a year down the road? (see video posted earlier today)
So that sealed the deal on me dumping this car before it's a money pit.
We get back:
He wants to keep the car for the weekend- sure, no problem. He gives the keys to the service center and says, fix it. We go into his office and asks me what I want to get into and he starts doing some searches at wholesale auctions. They give me a 2009 Impreza for a rental. He should be calling me later today with an update. This time, I believe I'll get a call.
But we shall see........ stay tuned for the conclusion.
Thursday, August 20, 2009
Second Response from the BBB
So apparently, according to the Better Business Bureau its OK to lie to customers......
In some instances, BBB receives a company's explanation with documentation supporting its position, rather than an offer of a specific adjustment. If the response addresses the disputed issues, BBB forwards the company's response to the customer for an opportunity to accept or rebut the company's position. At that time, if the customer does not provide additional information with documentation supporting his/her position and is unable to refute the company's evidence, then BBB is obliged to consider the matter resolved. Likewise, if a company makes an effort to resolve a dispute satisfactorily and its customer remains dissatisfied despite the company's efforts to satisfy the customer, then we are also obliged to consider the matter resolved.
After thoroughly reading all correspondence regarding your complaint against the above named company, BBB has determined that the company addressed your dispute. At this time, we are closing your complaint accordingly.
........ thats the whole email. Notice they didn't give any information for providing additional information for a dispute. No email address, no phone number.
In some instances, BBB receives a company's explanation with documentation supporting its position, rather than an offer of a specific adjustment. If the response addresses the disputed issues, BBB forwards the company's response to the customer for an opportunity to accept or rebut the company's position. At that time, if the customer does not provide additional information with documentation supporting his/her position and is unable to refute the company's evidence, then BBB is obliged to consider the matter resolved. Likewise, if a company makes an effort to resolve a dispute satisfactorily and its customer remains dissatisfied despite the company's efforts to satisfy the customer, then we are also obliged to consider the matter resolved.
After thoroughly reading all correspondence regarding your complaint against the above named company, BBB has determined that the company addressed your dispute. At this time, we are closing your complaint accordingly.
........ thats the whole email. Notice they didn't give any information for providing additional information for a dispute. No email address, no phone number.
Thursday, August 13, 2009
Response from the BBB
I appreciate and apologize for the issues Mr. Hartley has endured. As he stated in his complaint, we have performed under the limits of the state mandated used car warranty, and while our original diagnosis may have been wrong, we did replace the rotors and are willing to replace the tires. If Mr. Hartley had brought the rear hatch to our attention, I'm sure we could have solved that as well.
We have been selling and servicing Subaru's in greater Hartford for over 20 years. We have a good product and a good dealership. We don't receive too many complaints and are in good standing with all consumer agencies. While we are human and make mistakes, we will always work towards solving any complaint and/or work towards making our customers happy.
I would be more then happy to trade Mr. Hartley out of the car; unfortunately, we can't just take the car back and provide him with a refund because he has no confidence in the vehicle.
We have been selling and servicing Subaru's in greater Hartford for over 20 years. We have a good product and a good dealership. We don't receive too many complaints and are in good standing with all consumer agencies. While we are human and make mistakes, we will always work towards solving any complaint and/or work towards making our customers happy.
I would be more then happy to trade Mr. Hartley out of the car; unfortunately, we can't just take the car back and provide him with a refund because he has no confidence in the vehicle.
Wednesday, August 12, 2009
My response TO the BBB
Suburban Subaru's 30 year history in business does not have any bearing on this case or my issues. Also “under the limits of the state mandated used car warranty” simply means they are doing what they must under law. The law states what you MUST do, not what you CAN do. The law doesn’t say you can’t give a refund, it only says you don’t have to. So it really depends on how much they value the satisfaction and piece-of-mind their customers have. In light of the repeated problems with this vehicle, Suburban Subaru should value their customer's satisfaction enough to go beyond bare legal minimums and take care of the problems in a satisfactory manner.
While I do appreciate that diagnosis of problems such as vibrations in the vehicle can be tricky and require several attempts to remedy, this is not really the issue. The problem here is that each time I was given the car back, it was reported to me as being fixed. It was not said at any time that it was NOT fixed and needed more work except for the third visit where they machined the rotors so thin that they needed to be replaced. They were either warped or defective (their 106 point mechanical and safety inspection didn’t catch the warped rotors). I am currently waiting for a response form them regarding the replacement of the tires. I find it curious that they are willing to replace all four tires on my word alone and no additional inspection by them. Surely if they realized the tires needed replacing after their own inspections they would have done it, right? This makes me suspicious that they knew the tires needed replacing all along but were trying to get away without doing it.
Also, since this info was from an inspection of the tires without replacing them yet, there is no guarantee that this vibration will be gone after the tires are replaced. The defect in the tires could be a result of some other problem with the vehicle rather than the sole cause of the vibration.
I would also request that the tires of my choosing be installed at a different service center as it is apparent to me that the techs at Suburban Subaru can not notice a vibration as they have given me my car back with a vibration in it four times.
Concerning the tailgate latch; this should have been a very simple cut and dry repair. To say that “If Mr. Hartley had brought the rear hatch to our attention, I'm sure we could have solved that as well” is unacceptable. They had two chances to fix it- both times they said it was fixed. I simply didn’t need to waste my time and miss work to have them try again. It was, however, not fixed twice, yet it was returned to me as being fixed. This should not have been a tricky or ambiguous repair- it either works or not. Each time it was said to be fixed, it obviously was not. As soon as I got home and tested it and sure enough it was the same as it was before with the exception that it had some WD40 on it but still didn’t close. How do you explain that sort of service? What they did didn’t fix it, yet it was given back to me as fixed. Straight up incompetence, laziness, or worse- fraudulent.
I am also concerned that these problems have distracted or masked other problems that may or may not be related to the initial issues. The vibration problem may eventually be fixed, but it may have been hiding an unrelated problem that will not be covered by the dealership since the vehicle is now out of the CT implied warranty. The car seems to get lower than recorded MPG- which may or may not be due to the current problem. The hood support, after driving, is almost too hot to handle- this too may also be related to the vibration, but may not be. I won’t know until the vibration is fixed. Since the vibration won’t be fixed until after the warranty period is past, I may be stuck paying for these pre-existing problems myself.
To say that I have no confidence in the car is only part of the problem. I have no confidence in the service or the dealership. Aside of the service issues, they have also managed to loose the title of my trade-in and accuse me of trying to cheat or scam them out of money.
Concerning the trade/buyback; My salesman mentioned that the only ‘refund’ type solution would be to buy back the car at the trade-in value. This solution is unethical and unacceptable. Trade-in values are based on the dealer making a profit on its resale. Making a profit on the misery of their customers is wrong. I could sell it for more than the trade-in value and still lose thousands of dollars on this transaction. I would consider a trade into another vehicle only at full suggested retail value and if the vehicle was fully inspected by another service center.
While I do appreciate that diagnosis of problems such as vibrations in the vehicle can be tricky and require several attempts to remedy, this is not really the issue. The problem here is that each time I was given the car back, it was reported to me as being fixed. It was not said at any time that it was NOT fixed and needed more work except for the third visit where they machined the rotors so thin that they needed to be replaced. They were either warped or defective (their 106 point mechanical and safety inspection didn’t catch the warped rotors). I am currently waiting for a response form them regarding the replacement of the tires. I find it curious that they are willing to replace all four tires on my word alone and no additional inspection by them. Surely if they realized the tires needed replacing after their own inspections they would have done it, right? This makes me suspicious that they knew the tires needed replacing all along but were trying to get away without doing it.
Also, since this info was from an inspection of the tires without replacing them yet, there is no guarantee that this vibration will be gone after the tires are replaced. The defect in the tires could be a result of some other problem with the vehicle rather than the sole cause of the vibration.
I would also request that the tires of my choosing be installed at a different service center as it is apparent to me that the techs at Suburban Subaru can not notice a vibration as they have given me my car back with a vibration in it four times.
Concerning the tailgate latch; this should have been a very simple cut and dry repair. To say that “If Mr. Hartley had brought the rear hatch to our attention, I'm sure we could have solved that as well” is unacceptable. They had two chances to fix it- both times they said it was fixed. I simply didn’t need to waste my time and miss work to have them try again. It was, however, not fixed twice, yet it was returned to me as being fixed. This should not have been a tricky or ambiguous repair- it either works or not. Each time it was said to be fixed, it obviously was not. As soon as I got home and tested it and sure enough it was the same as it was before with the exception that it had some WD40 on it but still didn’t close. How do you explain that sort of service? What they did didn’t fix it, yet it was given back to me as fixed. Straight up incompetence, laziness, or worse- fraudulent.
I am also concerned that these problems have distracted or masked other problems that may or may not be related to the initial issues. The vibration problem may eventually be fixed, but it may have been hiding an unrelated problem that will not be covered by the dealership since the vehicle is now out of the CT implied warranty. The car seems to get lower than recorded MPG- which may or may not be due to the current problem. The hood support, after driving, is almost too hot to handle- this too may also be related to the vibration, but may not be. I won’t know until the vibration is fixed. Since the vibration won’t be fixed until after the warranty period is past, I may be stuck paying for these pre-existing problems myself.
To say that I have no confidence in the car is only part of the problem. I have no confidence in the service or the dealership. Aside of the service issues, they have also managed to loose the title of my trade-in and accuse me of trying to cheat or scam them out of money.
Concerning the trade/buyback; My salesman mentioned that the only ‘refund’ type solution would be to buy back the car at the trade-in value. This solution is unethical and unacceptable. Trade-in values are based on the dealer making a profit on its resale. Making a profit on the misery of their customers is wrong. I could sell it for more than the trade-in value and still lose thousands of dollars on this transaction. I would consider a trade into another vehicle only at full suggested retail value and if the vehicle was fully inspected by another service center.
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